[Correspondent] Do you happen to know whom the head of state makes his
confession to?
[Filaret] I don't know, but I think, to nobody.
Patriarch Filaret, the head of the Ukrainian Orthodox Church Kiev Patriarchate,
has said that the creation of one national Orthodox church is not possible
because the Ukrainian Orthodox Church Moscow Patriarchate opposed this.
Speaking in an interview with a Ukrainian daily, Patriarch Filaret said
that his church would be recognized once it had become the most powerful
Orthodox church in Ukraine. He favoured good relations with the Ukrainian
Greek Catholic Church but said the authorities are hampering the Ukrainian
Autocephalous Orthodox Church from uniting with the Kiev Patriarchate.
Ukrainian Orthodoxy is acting passively toward the rising popularity of
so-called charismatic churches, he said. The following is an excerpt of
the interview with Patriarch Filaret conducted by several journalists published
in the Ukrainian newspaper Ukrayina Moloda on 23 July: subheadings as published:
The issue of a national church should not depend on Moscow
[Correspondent] Your Holiness, the need to create a united church is one of the most urgent problems of Ukrainian Orthodoxy. Talks on it are being constantly held but there are no specific results yet. Do you personally think that such a unification is possible soon?
[Filaret] During recent celebrations of the third anniversary of the unification synod [former Ukrainian President] Leonid Kravchuk expressed an opinion, with which it is hard to disagree: there is no sense insisting on the creation of a united national Orthodox church because the unification of all Ukrainian Orthodox churches largely depends on Moscow. They will never agree to this there, so we should stress the creation of a national church without any "united" in it, our independent church. There is such a church: the Ukrainian Orthodox Church Kiev Patriarchate [UOCKP]. We should simply extend it, strengthen and build new churches. When it is clear to everybody that this is the most powerful church in Ukraine then we will be recognized.
The church plays an important role in state development. That is why the Moscow and Kiev patriarchies are fighting each other to be the dominant church in our country. If the Moscow Patriarchate wins then it will mean that Ukrainian independence is temporary and sooner or later it will disappear. The strengthening of the Ukrainian church will mean that Ukraine will not become a part of the Russian or any other empire.
[Correspondent] But a national church cannot exist without the unification of Orthodox churches. What steps is the Kiev Patriarchate taking in this direction?
[Filaret] Regarding the UOCMP, it is almost impossible to unite with it now because the Moscow Patriarchate, to which it is subordinate, is absolutely against this. They took the following position: "Let the Kiev Patriarchate repent and return under the vestments of the Moscow Patriarchate," and it is not going to relent. For our part, we cannot accept the repentance they want. What should we repent of? Of Ukraine becoming an independent state? Of this country's desire to have an independent church like many other countries? The scenario of repentance cannot be implemented. So we cannot unite with the Moscow Patriarchate.
Canonicity is an invention of the Moscow Patriarchate
[Correspondent] If you visit a church of the Moscow Patriarchate you will definitely hear about the "non-canonical" and "illegitimate" status of the Kiev Patriarchate. Vicars of the Moscow Patriarchate often force those baptized by a priest from the Kiev Patriarchate to be baptized again in a "canonical" church. Does the clergy of the Kiev Patriarchate pay them back in their own coin?
[Filaret] You will not hear criticism of the clergy from the Moscow Patriarchate in the churches of our patriarchate because we prohibit such statements during services and the stirring up of hatred between Orthodox Ukrainians, because people will stop coming to church if the clergy fight against each others. People are coming to church to pray, hear the word of God, find peace for their souls and consolation rather than join in the fighting. As regards vicars of the churches belonging to the Moscow Patriarchate, they are using such propaganda to protect themselves because they feel that their position is wrong. Ukraine should have its church and they know that they are foreigners here. That is why they, violating all principles of Christian morality, are canvassing against our patriarchate and going as far as the nonsense of demanding a repeat baptism. But the truth will win anyway. Together with love. You will see.
Regarding so-called "canonical status", this is an invention of the Moscow Patriarchate. Any church holding its services according to Orthodox canons is legitimate, i.e. canonical. To say that the Holy Spirit does not descend to the faithful who come to the churches of the Kiev Patriarchate means, excuse me, saying nonsense. The grace of the Holy Spirit depends only on God rather than on this or that religious centre. God wants everybody to save themselves so why should not it descend on those who sincerely pray and believe only because the person is standing in the wrong church?! Is it because the Moscow Patriarchate forbids it? This is nonsense.
Fortunately, those faithful who come to our churches do not think about this. The hatred is harmful only to those who stir it up. There is no God where hatred rules.
[Passage omitted: Filaret calls on the faithful to come to church regardless of the patriarchate it belongs to.]
On relations with autocephalous churches
[Correspondent] It is clear what your relations with Moscow Patriarchate are. What prevents the Kiev Patriarchate from uniting with the Ukrainian Autocephalous Orthodox Church? Are you holding any unification talks with them?
[Filaret] As regards the Ukrainian Autocephalous Orthodox Church, the situation is slightly different there. The autocephalous church wants to unite. But the authorities are not interested in this and make everything possible to hamper such intentions. So the situation is that the autocephalous church does not reject unification but at the same time is not in a hurry to do this.
Unification with the autocephalous church will not give anything special to the Kiev Patriarchate. The Ukrainian Autocephalous Orthodox Church is small. It has 500 parishes, mainly in western Ukraine. Of course, if such a unification takes place it would be very significant in terms of moral support for the idea of a national church. The need exists to unite Ukrainian Orthodoxy but, unfortunately, there is no chance of doing this soon unless some political changes take place and radically influence the process.
We can see that the more we insist on unification, the more opposition we provoke. That is why the UOCKP chose another tactic: we will not rush the issue. If you want to join us - you are welcome, if not - we will nevertheless strengthen and grow as the Kiev Patriarchate. The Ukrainian Autocephalous Orthodox Church has no other option than to unite. And I am sorry that they are hampered in doing this. Here is an example. When we were holding unification talks, the state unexpectedly gave the Andriyivska church in Kiev to the Ukrainian Autocephalous Orthodox Church. This posed the question as to why they did this if the churches were expected to unite? So they knew beforehand that the authorities do not need the unification and, to separate us more, gave them the Andriyivska church so that they could create their centre in the capital. There are many examples like this.
[Correspondent] Your Holiness, what is your attitude to the autocephalous church in the Ukrainian diaspora as it has a strong position there?
[Filaret] First, I must tell you that in reality there is no autocephalous church in the diaspora. Those churches in Canada, the USA, Australia, Europe and Latin America, which you obviously mean, are subordinated to the Ecumenical Patriarch. So they are not an autocephalous church, they are a part of the Constantinople Patriarchate. Only those parishes which belong to the Kiev Patriarchate (there are such parishes in Europe and the USA) remain part of the Ukrainian autocephalous church. All others belong to the Greek church, which is Ukrainian on paper but totally depends on Constantinople.
The Greek Catholics
[Correspondent] What relations do you have with Greek Catholics, in particular after the centre of the Greek Catholic Church moved to Kiev?
[Filaret] Very good. I try to maintain good relations with the Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church because the Ukrainian Orthodox Church Kiev Patriarchate and the Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church are the spiritual foundation of Ukraine because they support its sovereignty, unlike the Moscow Patriarchate. So, to strengthen our state, especially its spiritual component, we should be together with Greek Catholics. The only thing I am against is proselytism. If our faithful are converted to another church I will never put up with this.
[Correspondent] But you said that the Orthodox church was the only proper church. How do you agree this statement with the need to get closer to the Greek Catholic Church?
[Filaret] I am deeply convinced that only the Orthodox religion preserves intact the faith that originated from the apostles and holy fathers. The Catholic Church moved somewhat from it and introduced new dogmas, which are impossible in the church of Christ. Of course, the Protestants went even further and "modernized" so much now that they do not believe in the physical resurrection of Jesus. They say he resurrected "spiritually". But the situation regarding Greek Catholics is somewhat different. Of course, they moved away somewhat from the original Christian canons, but not so radically because the Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church preserves Orthodox rites.
On moving to one church calendar
[Correspondent] What is your attitude to the idea that the Orthodox and Catholics should have one calendar? A strange situation occurs because we celebrate holidays according to different calendars. For instance, all over the world Christ already resurrected a month ago and Ukrainians and Russians are still in mourning during Holy Week. And New Year's Day falls during the time of the Christmas fast and, instead of going to church and praying, people eat meat and dance at disco clubs on New Year's Eve. Other churches celebrate Christmas on 25 December.
[Filaret] Generally speaking, the Orthodox church also, in the main, changed to the new, Gregorian, calendar. Only the Ukrainian, Russian, Serbian, Georgian and Jerusalem churches stick to the old Julian calendar. This does not mean at all that the new calendar is wrong, on the contrary. We also made attempts to change to the new calendar but people did not accept this because the traditions are very strong. So the church also had to leave holidays on their old dates. Think about it: Protestants and Greek Catholics also celebrate together with us. They know that otherwise many faithful will leave them because they got used to these dates too much.
But I do not think that this will last forever. New generations will grow and they will change their psychological attitude to this and get used to new dates. Then our churches will also change to the calendar used all over the world.
On proselytism, charismatic churches and books
[Correspondent] Your Holiness, you are saying that you are afraid of proselytism by Greek Catholics. Don't you think that you should fight not against Greek Catholics to prevent "the stealing of believers" but against so-called "charismatic" churches, which have been successfully spreading in Ukraine and have great support among the state leadership and political leaders? For instance, a new building was constructed in Poznyaky district in Kiev. It was planned to be the only library in the district. But eventually the so-called Nadiya [hope] church occupies the building and people from neighbouring houses got importunate neighbours... [newspaper ellipsis]
[Filaret] I fully agree. Yes, there is a threat that there will be not five, not even 10, but 300 churches like in the USA. We should really fight against this, but do it cleverly. First, the activities of various sects should be restricted by legislation as it has long been in Europe and even Russia. The Ukrainian parliament should approve such laws, which, on the one hand, do not violate the freedom of conscience and religion but, on the other hand, do not give such broad opportunities for sects to convert our children and youth to their faith because sometimes it becomes simply dangerous. Second, the Orthodox church should also be more active. It should open its own libraries, education centres and think about bringing up a new generation.
It would be very important to teach Christian ethics in schools although this is actively opposed by some supporters of the "equality", who argue that there are not only Christians in Ukraine but also Muslims, Jews etc. This is true, but in reality such rules as "do not kill", "do not steal" and "respect your parents" are universal and the nature of any world religion. Would it be bad to put these rules in the souls of our children from their early years? We lack this very much. That is why various "charismatic" churches are so popular among Ukrainians. They are actively canvassing and attracting more and more new faithful while we are sleeping instead of doing something... [ellipsis as published]
[Passage omitted: The Kiev Patriarchate employed several private companies to produce church utensils and plate for them.]
All authority is from God
[Correspondent] Your Holiness, let's go back to the relations between the church and authorities. Despite assurances it is clear that the authorities, especially the executive branch of power, are not interested in the formation of a Ukrainian national Orthodox church...[ellipsis as published]
[Filaret] Regrettably, representatives of the authorities, especially local, mostly support the Moscow Patriarchate. It's not surprising that the UOCMP has over 6,000 parishes, whereas the Kiev Patriarchate has 3,500. The fact that the authorities are indifferent to a national church hinders its development a great deal. We are not asking to be given some kind of priority, but we just don't want to be hindered. Therefore, if obstacles were not put in our way, the UOCKP would gain strength very quickly. So far the problems arise mainly when UOCKP parishes need to be registered, and this process is moving very slowly "thanks to" some officials. Nevertheless, the UOCKP is growing and the number of parishes is increasing. Some people dislike it very much, and vigorous attacks on our parishes have begun recently, with congregations in the Poltava, Kiev Regions and the Crimea suffering most of all...[ellipsis as published]
[Correspondent] You speak about pressure from the authorities but at the same time accept decorations from these authorities, give valuable icons as gifts to its senior representatives... How can this be explained?
[Filaret] The church holds the view that all authority is from God. He decides what kind of authority we deserve. You may not agree with this, but that's how things really stand. Do you think that the Soviet power with its revolution and ruining of churches was accidental? No, it wasn't. If you look at the events of the 18th-19th centuries, you will see that Orthodox believers in the Russian empire moved away from God and the church. And, being baptized, they had nothing in common with Christian morality. The clergy, too, deviated from the faith, and did not live according to God's commandments. That's why God permitted the rule of such authorities which would remind all people about God. It's a mistake to think that the authorities depends on our will as they depend on God and our inner spiritual condition. Yes, I say that the authorities do not support us, but I accept decorations from them. Why? Personally, I don't need any decorations. But this decoration is a sign that the president is taking some kind of step towards the UOCKP. And it's to our advantage. Because every representative of the authorities in either in a region or district greatly values the opinion of the head of state: so the president's attitude becomes the local authority's attitude. Therefore, it is favourable for me to find mutual understanding with the authorities. But if we choose confrontation, we'll get the same result that the catacomb church got at one time: it didn't want to compromise with the Soviet authorities and was left with nothing. The situation was saved by Serhiy, a Russian Patriarch, who chose a path of mutual understanding with the authorities which did not interfere with the essence of the faith. Because there are the words of Christ: "Give to Caesar what is Caesar's, and to God what is God's". What belongs to the authorities on earth should be given to them. But what belongs to God: faith, keeping God's commandments - there has never been and can never be any compromise here.
[Correspondent] Your Holiness, one gets the impression that you are overly tolerant. Did this trend begin after the sad events of "black Tuesday" on 18 July 1995? Maybe, the authorities just told you then: "Keep as quiet as a mouse under a broom and nobody will touch you"?
[Filaret] No, it's quite different. It is precisely because of my "tolerant" position, as you put it, that nobody has been able to defeat me so far. The fight is not so much against the UOCKP, as against its head. But they are not able to win. In reality there is firmness behind this seeming pliability. In Soviet times I was also "tolerant" and thanks to this the Ukrainian exarchate had 60 per cent (!) of all Moscow Patriarchate parishes. Because I am unswerving in everything regarding the Ukrainian church. However, in order to strengthen the UOCKP one needs to reach certain compromises with the authorities. But, knowing my views, only those in power who have a firm pro-Ukrainian state position come to me.
[Correspondent] Aren't you afraid that you will lose your parishioners who see your "playing along" with untruthful authorities and finally begin to seek God in different sects which are now much more numerous in Ukraine than Orthodox parishes?
[Filaret] We will lose parishioners if the struggle within the Orthodox church continues. The sects are now taking advantage of it. If we had a united church, different sects would have much less influence.
About faith and intellect
[Correspondent] Is it simply because the Catholic, Protestant and other churches are being modernized in accordance with the demands of time that more and more believers are joining them? It's true that man, his philosophy and intellect were changing over the centuries, and you want to keep him on the same level as two thousand years ago?
[Filaret] If faith were based on human intellect then your assumption would be probably right. But the point is that faith can be based on one thing only - on revelation from God. What God has revealed is the truth. But a human being, no matter how educated he may be still makes mistakes, and therefore all the philosophers and wise men are no more than sinful people with earthly minds. An ordinary human being will never attain God-like wisdom, and whatever he may imagine, the truth given by God will remain unchangeable.
[Correspondent] So, does this mean then that the church brings down the creative potential of man's intellect?
[Filaret] This is a wrong way of thinking, because the church does not sweep away science and research, it merely states that only the material world is perceptible to man. He can get to know earthly things endlessly, as far as his mind and technical means will permit, but you can't measure God with compasses. Human intellect is powerless here - there is only faith.
[Correspondent] And still, maybe your church should change in some way? It's true that now many parishioners move away to the so-called charismatic churches, because they don't find enough understanding in the Orthodox church. Probably, the Orthodox church needs to be reformed?
[Filaret] Yes, we do need reforms. But it's worthwhile to determine which of them are most urgent. To begin with, we need to switch to an understandable liturgical language. The Old Church Slavic language is not understood by the greater majority of believers. People do not understand what they read or sing about. A switch to the Ukrainian language is an important element which will affect the Ukrainians who come to the Orthodox church. There is a need to bring the message of Orthodox liturgy to every person's heart and mind, then no special reorganization will be required. Because the Orthodox church is called to influence man's soul, nourishing goodness and love of one's neighbour and a clear conscience, all of which are inherent in an Orthodox Christian. Then this person will help destitute and sick people, and not because it's to his advantage, but because his heart tells him so. It is precisely this rather than social reforms which are emphasized by the Orthodox church. Social reforms were also carried out by the Soviet authorities and, objectively, they weren't bad. But Marxism annulled the soul, ignored it completely - and as a result criminals grew inside the system which they later destroyed. When we look back at history we see that it's the emphasis on wellbeing on this earth which led to the spread of atheism. Because there was a gradual backsliding from the very essence of Christianity. Christ taught: seek first the kingdom of God, and everything else, including earthly wellbeing, will be added, that is, it will be the result of your spiritual work. This kingdom of God should be established in people's souls by the church. You cannot come to the kingdom of God, to its goodness and love through earthly wellbeing.
Just look around you. Is Ukraine really so poor? No, it's not poor. Where do the billions deposited in foreign banks come from? [They come] from our people, from our land. And why do our rulers do that? Because they haven't got a conscience. The government allocates several billion to the miners, but the miners don't receive this money. What's the cause of all this? It's because there is a no clear conscience and responsibility before God, thus corruption thrives on this very absence of spiritual values. Therefore, the task of the church is to raise the kingdom of God in man's soul rather than spread all sorts of declarations consistent with "the spirit of the age".
[Correspondent] You used to have a different opinion concerning the [use] of the Ukrainian language in liturgy. In the late 1980s quite a few articles signed by you were published, which contain almost the same terms as now used by the UOCMP, it was argued that the Ukrainian language is not canonical, it allegedly does not correspond with church rules and there is a need to use Old Church Slavic...[ellipsis as published]
[Filaret] It cannot be so. I've never come out against the use of the Ukrainian language in liturgy. Besides, it was with my blessing that the Ukrainian translation of the New Testament was printed way back in Soviet times, we published the Orthodox Messenger in Ukrainian...[ellipsis as published] My opinion was this: he who wants to hold the service in Ukrainian, let him do so. There was one such parish in Kiev and I supported it. But you see, in those conditions it was impossible to take any radical steps in this direction, and I understood this better than anyone else. If I didn't take this aspect into account, the result would not have been to the advantage of the Ukrainian church. I would simply have been removed, and another person, who would obediently do what he was told to do, would have been put in my place. Such were the conditions then - you had to be very careful so as not to go against your beliefs and at the same time avoid a conflict with the authorities. I've always said that if you have become a leader, you need wisdom in order to lead wisely. If you lack wisdom, it's better not to do it.
I say this to many priests: you are employees, not pastors
[Correspondent] Quite a few people who go to an Orthodox church come to the conclusion that the priest communicates with God, but does not communicate with the people. But when they come to charismatic churches, the pastor communicates with them. One gets the impression that Orthodox priests place themselves too high above the people...[ellipsis as published]
[Filaret] In order to communicate with people it is necessary to have communication with God first. If you really have fellowship with God (and God is the source of life, love and mercy), if you have found the way to Him, you will never walk past a person who needs your help. You just won't be able to do it. But if you don't have fellowship with God, all these contacts with people won't do anybody any good. They are temporary - they are here today, and tomorrow you forget about them. I agree with you that our clergy is often not only far from the ideal, but even far from being true priests and pastors. There are many people among the clergy who got there by accident, who came to church and became priests only to make a living on this sinful earth. Of course, such a priest will not lead a person to God. Therefore, I say this to many priests: you are employees not pastors because you work for money and not in the name of God. Of course, there are also many true priests. And so, where the priest is a real pastor, such problems as you mentioned do not arise.
[Correspondent] In that case, why don't you dismiss such careless priests?
[Filaret] They can be dismissed, but who will be put in their place?
[Correspondent] It's best not to put anybody.
[Filaret] I don't think it's best not to put anybody. Because even if a bad priest reads the Word of God, it does its work irrespective of the priest's personal qualities. But if we reduce the number of parishes to the number of decent priests, we are going to lose a lot.
[Correspondent] Maybe the prospects will be better if they are replaced by young priests?
[Filaret] Changes are taking place but quite often the same kind of people come. If all the graduates of seminaries and academies were true to their calling, then, of course, we wouldn't have such problems. Quite a few people want to become priests now: the UOCKP has two theological academies, one theological department, six theological seminaries and there are 1,500 in total in all these institutions. However, there is another problem here: many of the graduates do not become priests. In the past the authorities would not let people who wanted to enter a seminary do so; all kinds of obstacles were put in their way and only those who really wanted to devote their life to God overcame them. After this, all those who became students, afterwards became priests. Regrettably, things are quite different now...[ellipsis as published]
[Corespondent] Is it possible to know what salaries the priests get?
[Filaret] The salaries are not high. A village priest gets one hundred hryvnya or even less. A priest in the city can get 200-500 hryvnyas. However, a village priest also gets food items from parishioners.
[Correspondent] And what the church paying taxes?
[Filaret] Like all the other people, we pay taxes according to legislation.
[Correspondent] I wonder if people pay for a baptism, burial or marriage as much as the senior priest decides or are there any tariffs?
[Filaret] No, this is decided by the local congregation. It also happens that people pay the priest as much as they think possible. That's the priest's traditional way of earning money, because salaries as such began to be paid in the times of Soviet rule.
We don't talk about God with the president
[Correspondent] Now a "loaded" question: Your Holiness, how often do you meet with President Kuchma? Who is the initiator of meetings and what do you speak with him about? Do you talk about God?
[Filaret] You know very well when we meet and how often that happens, because every such meeting is widely covered by the press. In the past I used to be the initiator, and now it's the other way around. There are many topics for our conversation, but to my regret, we don't talk about God. We talk about church matters.
[Correspondent] Do you happen to know whom the head of state makes his confession to?
[Filaret] I don't know, but I think, to nobody.
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